Let me start by saying that nothing I'm about to say or ask is meant as an insult in anyway. I'd hate to be taken the wrong way. I will be mixing in my opinions with my question and do note I respect the opinions of those who will disagree with me. to each his own and I think can all agree on the ultimate goal of just playing what you like and enjoying it.

that said........

I've noticed that banjo players tend to pick a style and then play everything in that style. if you play Scruggs, you roll everything, you you play claw hammer you claw everything.

Take amazing grace

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FTblCZ6qy0c

to my ears that doesn't even sound anything like the song.  to me amazing grace would be better played like this guy is doing with another song

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=A3CscX8SwL4

people I've talked to have mistaken the banjo as being limited in versatility . I think maybe they heard a song like amazing grace played like Murphy and like me thought? where's the melody? and then they think banjos are really best suited for blazing fast bluegrass. 

guitar players don't for example adopt the carter picking style and then make every song fit into that style, even if the song doesn't want too.

they might flat pick one, finger pick another and simply strum another. and even at that nobody just does travis picking only or whatever.

I'm taking banjo from a guy who only knows Scruggs. and he's a professional. He can't do Clawhammer.

if you went to a guitar teacher and they said they can only each you to finger pick, I don't do flat picking, we'd all think that weird.

same with the odd notion of trying to box certain styles of playing to certain styles of music. why is Clawhammer only for old time? why not Clawhammer a bluegrass tune and Scruggs roll an old time tune just to make things interesting?

so it got me wondering. why do some banjo players only play Scruggs or only do Clawhammer? why don't most banjo players learn all the styles, even stuff like strumming and singing or mixing melodies with strums

take the banjo out and try to play Greensleeves, but instead of non stop rolls, try it like this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBZAOsiPtxg

where you can recognize the song, and it sounds more like what the song is known to sound like.

so back to the main question: why do many banjo players limit themselves to one style, and doesn't that limit what you can do with the banjo, and how you can play different songs in ways that seem to best fit how that song sounds

maybe there's a good reason. maybe most banjo players just like it that way (which is perfectly fine, as you should do what you like not what other people like)

maybe there's other reasons too. maybe they're very good reasons, I wouldn't know and don't want to be presumptuous. I figured I'd ask and just see what kind of info and input i can get. 

now. just in case someone says to me that if I want to play the banjo like a guitar, I should just play the guitar.....well the banjo is easier to play than a guitar. try making a B chord on a guitar and see how quickly you run screaming back into the arms of the banjo. well at least for those of you like me that can't play barre chords if our lives depending on it. LOL

Harr, Har,... A Joke right???....
In a few weeks, you can be fairly proficient on guitar or old time banjo enuff to accompany most songs..
And you can spend the rest of your life studying Scruggs Style and not get there...

Your talking about completely different genres of music... Not necessarily related to each other in any form... Kinda like comparing Chopin or jazz on the piano vs chop sticks.. If you can play chop sticks, why not the classics type thing..

No my post isn't a joke. I'm no expert so I may be way off, but that's why I am asking questions.

I'd like to hear folks thoughts, whether they think I'm mistaken and would like to give me their thoughts or from folks that think I'm onto something and give me their thoughts.

also let me make absolutely sure folks know that I am not insulting any particular style, or folks that prefer to focus on a certain style. as I said at the end of the day folks need to do what best suites them not what best suites me or anybody else.

and that's cool.

here I'm just sharing some passing thoughts I had and asking for the thoughts of others.

Edited by - jfrebel on 02/22/2012 21:44:40

Good post. I see ur point, a genre melting pot. I think kennth is on track too. To have complete mastery of one particular style is a life long pursuit. That being said sure one can become proficient at a particular style of guitar in a fairly short period of time but here again complete mastery could be a life long endevor. Clearly it is possible to mix certain styles of banjo playing. Could the the answer to ur question be as simple as once a Scruggs style player puts the finger picks on frailin could be very difficult to do within the confines of one song. Imagine the clunkers as the picks get caught in the strings. Sure some strums and brushes are fairly easy to mix in with Scruggs playing but claw hammer would be very tough. I guess anything is possible and I believe John Hartford did something similar to claw hammer using his ring finger but that's got to be difficult.

You raise some good questions, but I would first ask whether you are saying that Scruggs based players don't play old time style, and clawhammer players don't play bluegrass style?  If so, I would answer that these two different style of players very often cross over into each others world.  I play out a Scruggs style, yet I also play a lot of tunes popular in the clawhammer world. 

I also play a lot of blues, a little jazz, and some classical tunes on the banjo.  Additionally, I write my own songs, and many of them are a combination of many different styles of music.  You could take lessons from a blues/rock guitar teacher, and I could almost guarantee you that he cannot teach bluegrass style (or even old time style/folk) properly unless he's become trained in it. My experience has proven (to me at least) that more often than not, they don't have the feel for bluegrass of old time music despite how well trained they are in blues/rock.

I experiment on the banjo and find that I can play with almost any band, in any genre of music (Rap and hip hop not included, though I should probably attempt it sometime).

I didn't see your post as a "joke", jferbel.  It was an honest question (imo).

I've tried clawhammer (frailing) and never got the hang of it. I'd love to learn
how to do it though.  It'll probably never happen, but - - there's plenty of folks
who can do both clawhammer as well as the Scruggs style.  

I don't even do Scruggs style well, but I do use some of the licks in the tunes
I know along with a lot of melodic stuff that's comfortable to me to pick.
I just "go with what's comfortable" for me to pick, regardless of "style".

The banjo is not "limited in versatility" by any means, unless it's the picker who's doing so.
The banjo has been taken in leaps and bounds from it's original roots.
The banjo isn't limited, but usually the picker thereof is.  
Thus the answer to your question?  

@ bbaker

well you could always take the picks off when claw hammering. LOL

Edited by - jfrebel on 02/22/2012 22:27:56

@ dmiller and westvon, I just wanted to reply that I read your posts. I can't think of a direct reply other than I liked your input and wanted to make sure you don't think I missed them with my reply to bbaker

Mike Seeger distinguishes between techniques and styles. Three-finger picking, clawhammer, two-finger picking, and more, they are all techniques. Scruggs-style is one of the many styles of the three-finger picking technique. There are also different clawhammer-styles...

Most clawhammer players play different clawhammer-styles. With the guitar, it's comparable. There is finger picking too (some use three fingers, some four, some two, that's not such a big deal among guitarists as it is among banjoists). But I never met a guitar fingerpicker who, e.g., plays everything in the style of Mississippi John Hurt...

But, especially Scruggs-style people, often limit themselves to just Scruggs-style. It has become so popular that it started to dominate. The answer is: it's just so popular, many people like it so much, which is of course what's so remarkable and special about Scruggs-style.

And that, my friends, is the whole point of Classic banjo. I discovered Classic style banjo when I struggled to get songs to fit in the other styles I knew (Scruggs and frailing) without mangling the melody and harmony. I haven't looked back since.

I think the core of the inquiry of the OP seems to me, what drives the choices being made by a musician, to choose one style over another, or one genre over another? I hope I have characterized that correctly.

I think the answer is, what is it that drew a person to the banjo? So some folks, they heard Scruggs play, and that was it. That electrified their world and all things Scruggs became the center of their existence. So for those folks who came to the banjo through Scruggs, or JD Crowe, or any other picker, it was the style or sound one person picking that drew them in (that almost has a Zen-like sound to it, doesn't it?). Those folks will spend years studying and playing just like their hero did. In fact, there are often discussions about the need to learn a tune not just in someone's style, but literally verbatim, note for note, the way it was done originally.

For others, it's the type of music that drew them in to banjo. They love a certain style of music, which happens to include banjo banjo, so the love of that kind of music lead them to the instrument.

Then for others, like myself, it was the sound of the banjo that drew me to it. I just love the sound and tone of what can come out of the instrument.

I believe that, to a large degree, how a person came to pick up the instrument pretty much defines the direction they choose to go with it. So how they apply the banjo to a song, pretty much reflects that.

Personally, I think the banjo can play a much greater roll in many genres than many other instruments can. I view the approach to banjo kind of like keyboards. You can hear a piano fit in almost any style of music: country, jazz, blues, classical, funk, whatever -- even bluegrass -- you will often find a piano there. I think the piano is probably one of the few instruments that can cut across any and all those boundaries. I think the banjo is too. Béla Fleck has pretty much proven that.

So to answer why someone plays tunes within a particular style, the short answer is, because that's how they learned to do it. I feel that the more influences you can study, or listen to, or absorb somehow, that it creates more opportunities for more variety to happen when playing. To more ya put in, more can come out.

Having said all that, I don't play ClawHammer. I love hearing it, watching it, and I jam with clawhammer banjo pickers all the time. I was just never drawn to play that style because I have found, I can play the same tunes in the style that I've developed on my own and get along just fine.

And, finally, I think it is far better to let the song or tune dictate what needs to be played, rather than the other way around. For example, I think it is very cool to take popular tunes and play them with a banjo, mandolin, etc.... but to let the tune dictate what the tune needs. For me, one of the most annoying things to listen to is a bluegrass band that takes well known rock and roll songs and turns them into bluegrass, bluegrass beat, bluegrass harmonies, bluegrass crazy fast tempos, all that, without honoring the spirit of the tune at all. No matter how great the band or musicians, many great songs are butchered that way. They become novelty tunes, a joke to me.

Hope this helps.

Edited by - banjoy on 02/23/2012 01:51:45

Alot of good questions...!!

"same with the odd notion of trying to box certain styles of playing to certain styles of music. why is Clawhammer only for old time? why not Clawhammer a bluegrass tune and Scruggs roll an old time tune just to make things interesting?" 

I started out with Scruggs but got into clawhammer early on. Most of what I play (IMO) is bluegrass with clawhammer style. Sometimes I'll inter mix 3-finger and CH styles, sometimes with a 2-finger-thumb-lead. I have found some tunes that don't sound as good in CH, but sound better in Scruggs. Generally, that's based on my own limitations....

I never studied one particular player.
I just play what seems appropriate to me without regard to what style it is.

I wouldn't know how to play like someone else.

I play with Canadian fiddlers,bluegrassers,piano bar,blues musicians and songwriters.
I decide what best helps whatever genre I find myself in.

I play without finger picks, and have been known to do Scruggs rolls, Seeger strum, fake frailing, and a uke strum during different parts of  the same song.

Best advice I ever got, was back around 1974, from a local Banjo Expert named Ken Haferman.

"Kid, it's your banjo. Play it any damned way you want!"

I play mostly Scruggs style but first thing I learned was frailing , then a little 2 finger picking. I often take off my picks after a Scruggs break to Mountain Dew and then play another break frailing like Grandpa Jones.  I find it valuable to try frailing a bluegrass song like Dear Old Dixie to help strengthen my knowledge of the melody. I also find it useful to play clawhammer using bluegrass style tunings and chording with capo instead of using clawhammer tunings. I also find Clahammer styles more user friendly for solo playing.  If people started with the Seeger book, they would be used to more styles.

Edited by - Fathand on 02/23/2012 05:50:56

I think eventually I am going to jump into 2-finger style playing as well....eventually, but I wanna make sure I am well along in clawhammer first. But I agree with what Ratler said, some songs just lend more to certain styles I think also.

I think for a lot of us, the style of music, bluegrass, old time, etc. helps us pick the style of banjo playing we pursue. While there are many players who can alternate or intermix banjo styles, most of us can not, and therefore choose to follow the music style we favor.   We learn to adapt when confronted with a tune outside of our usual style.  Often  times picking up an alternate instrument  or by an uncharacteristic banjo stroke.  I either pick up my banjo-uke or play a ukulele strum on my banjo.

A lot depends on the others in the group.  Some are  purists and would rather not have anything but traditional instruments and playing techniques for that style of music.  Others are more about music and if your style of playing adds to the music, than a goal has been met.

Another thing jfrebel mentions in his original post is getting to far away from the tune.  There are players out there that have more talent in their little finger than I'll ever have, but no matter what style, how fancy the licks, how innovative the playing, if they name a song to play, by golly, it ought to end up sounding like that song.

Jeff

You don't need books to show you different styles or ways to play the banjo.
You just need to thrust yourself into a different style of music,pay attention and see what develops.

People play what they like. It's as simple as that. 

Why make it an issue?

Mike

quote:

---

Originally posted by jfrebel

why is Clawhammer only for old time?

 

---

Short answer: it's not!

For further exploration, I direct you to some of Mr. IVerson's work:

http://www.banjoutah.com/styled-14/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uy2HsUj12J8&list=UUCGvax26loUGt5bRK86R1Kw&index=8&feature=plcp

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Scym_AypBU&list=UUCGvax26loUGt5bRK86R1Kw&index=7&feature=plcp

http://bluesageband.com/direct_files/take_five.mp3

Edited by - Quartermaster James on 02/23/2012 06:56:53

Mike pretty well summed It up,  People play what they like,  It's as simple as that. I only play three finger Scruggs style because that's the only style I like, It doesn't matter what kind of music I play, Country - Bluegrass- or southern rock or whatever, I still play It Scruggs style..

STELLING MAN

Why do some people love chocolate and others hate it (the weirdos,haha)? Why do some people only play "Gibson" and others play any brand of banjo? The answers could be as simple as "they like it that way' or as complex as debating which one is 'better'. If you really want to play bluegrass banjo proficiently, why spend lots of time on Clawhammer? If you want to be a great flat picking tenor banjoist, why spent lots of time on Scruggs 3 finger stuff ?  For most folks, there isn't really enough time for them to be all encompassing and ry to play 6 styles of banjo. Some just make up a style, with bits and pieces of  everything they hear and they are fine with that. 

Everyone who plays the banjo makes choices based on what they 'like' and  interests them most, or what they have 'time for'. No matter the style, I think the 4 "T's" apply, and finding melody. The only person who can put your playing in a box is you  and or you allowing popular opinion place it there.

Edited by - Banjophobic on 02/23/2012 07:47:04

quote:

---

Originally posted by Banjophobic
 

No matter the style, I think the 4 "T's" apply, and finding melody. The only person who can put your playing in a box is you  and or you allowing popular opinion place it there.

Okay John, I know about 3 "T's" — touch, timing and tone — what's the 4th "T" ?? ... tenacity??

I don't see the exclusionary stuff that much, but only because I make a major distinction between 3-finger picking and Bluegrass Genre and between clawhammer/frailing and Old-Time Music.

It is true that most of the banjoists I meet only either claw OR pick, but there are getting to be more and more who do.

Of the ones who pick, it does seem that most of them are seriously into bluegrass.
They are hard to avoid and ignore when they get in your face and tell you you're playing it wrong but there are also a lot of people who pick the banjo and play any type of music they wish. (there just aren't a lot of paying gigs for stuff like that but that's only of concern to folks who want that).

In the old-time world, there are also the righteously traditional who will get in your face if you're doing it wrong.

And there are those who frail folk and country and rock.

imo, choosing to pick or frail is one choice to be made.
choosing to play in the old-timey style or in bluegrass-style or rock style or reggae-style is a different choice.

quote:

---

Originally posted by minstrelmike

It is true that most of the banjoists I meet only either claw OR pick, but there are getting to be more and more who do.

 

---

I think more relevant is the question why many "banjoists that pick" stick to strictly Scruggs-style. For my view of this, I'd like to refer to the post I made before in this thread. 

The question: Why do most people play the most popular stuff? seems to me a rhetorical one.

If you want to listen to a record with banjo on it at random, you will get Bluegrass most of the time.

Same reason most of the kids who take up electric guitar do rock and country instead of blues or jazz or polka.

Exposure.