I read all the time on the Hangout that in order to make progress you should get out and jam with others.. I have been spending a lot of time lately learning backup from Jack Hatfields book. The book comes with two CDs with Jacks band playing up to speed all in all I think its a pretty comprehensive training aid. 

I have learned several chord progressions, some rolling backup and some with embellishments and I can play along in time with the music, change chords at the right time chuck in a tag lick at the right time.. However and heres the rub trying out the same thing with the guy's I jam with I can vamp without any problem but I can't seem to get the rolls to fit their music. I even tried playing along with a recording of one of their jam sessions and still I can't get into the groove.

So maybe the advice to go out and jam with others should come with a health warning.

Maybe something like  WARNING Jamming with other musicians can seriously damage your playing ability    

is it them? ifound out a whole buch of times that I went out to pick with new people, when i was a little green that these guys could really pick, and I would trail off somewhere. Then I found it, in many cases it was them. I kept playing with musicians who played alone one the couch by themselves and THEIR timming was off. great pickers, but crappy timing, by which I mean most of them did not recognize rests. go out with other people, challange yourself, you will find the shelf you belong on. I believe jamming is essential, and will be fun, hang tight

Maybe Jack will give you a job pickin' in his band...

To answer your question directly--yes.

Without more info, it's impossible to say what's not clicking with you and the guys you mention.  Maybe it's them, maybe it's the songs (the chord progression is not actually what you think)...maybe it's the timing, maybe it's something else....but playing with others is not only fun, but extremely helpful (assuming the one's you're playing with are playing somewhat correctly).  But playing with others is also near the top of the skill food chain...it certainly doesn't come quickly or easily.

I find that I have to fit my playing to the group I am jamming with. Same song, completely different way of playing it. I think Jamming has been a big part of learning for me.

I have found jamming HUGE for my growth. Some groupings with folks are better than others, but I think developing the ability to listen and respond as a player is really important. That said, finding a group that you are comfortable with is pretty important at the start - maybe with this group keep the vamp (what works) and add little fills without trying to roll the whole time??? Good luck, but keep at it!

If the guys you are jamming with aren't good, I don't see how it can help. Conversely, if they are too good, they may be intimidating and leave you floundering.

Hey, Tam, I pretty much agree with the other posts on this thread...However, I can certainly identify with your frustrations having experienced what you described. Some of the times it was just me and my inexperience with some really good players. However, another time in a jam, vamping and trying to roll with some tunes I did not know, I was following the guitar player and his chord changes and I was having a really bad time until I realized he didn't know the songs either and was just guessing at the chord changes.. I was also having trouble hearing the other players, even when I backed way, way down with my own playing. Other times I have been with people that keep a good solid rhythm going and they are easy to follow, vamping and rolling, whether or not I know the song. Working with backing tracks are great, I do it all the time, but when I play with "real people" is when I see the greatest improvement. Hang in there.

Find a radio station that plays something you feel like you can keep up with ... bluegrass, country, blues, whatever. Anything. Don't worry about the type of music. Then jam to that.

Figuring out chords, Playing around with rolls. Different timing things you can do. Whatever comes to mind.

Doing that, you get to work on your hearing chord changes, and messing with rolls and different things. Then 3 or 4 minutes later, another tune. Maybe same key. Maybe not. It can be kinda fun, and it not intimidating when you mess up or can't keep up.

I don't know of any one path to get from here to there. Everyone is different. I played to the radio for a while years ago it seemed to help me get over a few hurdles of my own...

I find that at some jam's they play songs different than I know them. Jams let you see and hear what a different group of people play and how they play it. I see really good players able to take a break on a difficult song that they have never heard before and sound real close to the melody. I think jams show you what you need to work on. At the jams I go to if there are several banjos they don't play rolls are vamp at the same time. Don't be afraid to just listen to some songs and just add a little to it. I always work on playing softly and not to many rolls. But that is just me. best of luck Gary C

You will, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS end up being a better musician by playing with others who are better than you.  Half of playing better and continued improvement is accomplished  not by playing, but listening to what is being played.  Find the groove, find the beat, find the chords and then get in.  If you  find you cannot quite keep up or fit in, you are probably  playing exactly with the group who will bring you along as a better musician, given your time and inclination to  learn.  I do not mean to sound "preachy".  It is just how we all get better as players.  Yours truly included.

As has been suggested, you need to know whether the problem is you or the problem is them - or whether it's a little of each.  It wouldn't surprise me if  the people you've been jamming with are good pickers whose timing is different from what's on the Hatfield CD, which can easily throw you off, even on songs you know.  It's also possible, however, that their timing is not good, which can also throw you off.  If the issue is the former, listen, learn and adapt.  If the problem is the latter, move on.  

You need to listen to what's going on and be honest in evaluating where the problem is.  But that's the thing about jamming - it teaches you to listen to other people and when you do that, your playing stops being a solo abstraction and starts to become real music.  

Some players just have freaky timing. Our dobro/mando player will sometimes play guitar. We've never been able to lock into his guitar groove. It's sounds ok to listen to, but not to play too. But give him his dobro or mando, and he's awesome. I also recently tried working with a newer country guitar player singer... and it never took off. He sounded great by himself, but me and the bass player could never lock on, and he went his separate way. And yet my friends that I've been jamming with for years can tear it up. Then there's always the possibility your buddies were playing 3/4 or 6/8 time just to mess with you :)

quote:

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Originally posted by Tam_Zeb

I can't seem to get the rolls to fit their music. I even tried playing along with a recording of one of their jam sessions and still I can't get into the groove.

Here's my suggestion.  Get out the recording of the jam session and just tap your foot to the music.  That will tell you whether these jammers have decent rhythm.  Then start your foot tapping and start playing your rolls in time with your foot.

Your foot can be the glue tying your timing to the timing of others.  I once asked my teacher (who insisted on all his students tapping a foot while playing) whether you play to your tapping or tap to your playing.  He said:  “You tap to what the others are playing, and then you play to your foot.”  That advice may be particularly useful in your situation.

Bluegrass music is fluid and live, it breathes... If you are past the beginner stage and expect to hear music played with metronome timing you are gonna to be left in the dust... Even doing a plain repeating roll, theres big time and little time in the roll... The major thing most prominent thing from teaching aids CD/metro timing is that it is mostly midbeat... Bluegrass is played on top or slightly ahead of the beat... NO, country type guitar playing/timing won't never be right, it just don't fit...
Maybe go over to my homepage and listen to the jam session standards... These aren't prepared in any shape or form, but from a live jam with 7/8 pickers from all levels and help in off key singing from the onlookers. Picked up on a single recorder that was overloaded at times..   But it is a good illustration of a bunch of jammers, guys and gals turning it on and having fun... Notice where the beat stays...

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 02/22/2012 21:21:00

Jamming is a great learning tool, You will develop you ear for hearing chord changes and will improve you back-up playing. The more jam's you attend the more experience you will acquire, and most important you will meet / make some great friend's

Big Bird

Thanks for all the great feedback guys

I don't think it's as simple as just go out, jam and you'll get better. I've seen players go to the same jam for two years and never improve. Without effort of your own a jam isn't going to help you a whole lot. If the timing of the jam is really bad it's probably going to hurt more than help.

It's hard to say what the problem is without hearing the actual jam. It could be you or it could be them.  

Edited by - Jody Hughes on 02/23/2012 10:40:27

I second that

Amen... Some smaller jams are just thataway and always have been.. And some mighty fine usedtobe jams in this area have been ruint or closed by the country crowd.. Hard for beginners to hear or know the difference.. and they think its their failing..

Edited by - Kenneth Logsdon on 02/23/2012 11:14:35

I have found jams to be a good resource in developing my ear.  Some of them have really good players and some of them, have made my ears bleed.  In the beginning they all sounded good, but as I progressed I began to hear the differences.  I find the ones with the more experienced and professional folks more challenging.  They help me set goals and push myself.  I try to go to a variety of them.  As the saying goes, different folks, different strokes.  I am lucky in that I live in an area where there are lots of talented players and teachers like Jody.  And I am learning where the "better" jams are located.  Jams for me are just one part of the whole learning process to help me improve my skills.

It's all a fine line.  The advice is: find good people to jam with.  The problem for a beginner is the many good people don't want to jam with beginners--hence the catch 22.  I well remember the painful days of just beginning, the cold shoulders, asking if I could join in and being told 'no,' ---that's reality for many beginners.  I understand that many people would say "I enjoy jamming with beginners and helping them," but a lot of people are more concerned with sounding good than helping beginners.  So, how do you get better jamming with not-so-good people?  This is why I say again all jamming is helpful.  Realize that everyone you jam with won't be good--some will have horrible timing, some will butcher songs---but you can learn from all of it.  Even in bad jams, the beginner can learn what not to do.

I heard about a jam at a small church in a nearby community so I thought I'd go check it out. This was maybe 2 years ago.

Cool little church, lovely people, salts of the earth, I enjoyed that part immensely. Worst jam I have ever been to in terms of musicianship. There was this wonderful older gentleman playing electric bass who not only could not keep time, but he would play entire songs in the wrong key, and have no clue the entire time. The tune would being G, he's play bass in the key of D. I think he nailed the key maybe 1 in 4 songs. He just played with this huge grin on his face, he was so happy.

The jam also had a steel guitar player show up, with his amp, and he didn't quite understand that there were other folks in the room too. He was pretty loud.

The place had a wonderful spirit about it, but I guess I'm a little selfish in that it was a little like torture. I went to it twice. But I enjoyed it anyway, for what it was. I jammed the entire evening. No reason not to enjoy musical fellowship.

I haven't been back, but I've thought about it.

Edited by - banjoy on 02/23/2012 13:16:13

There was a jam that I used to go to... every week there was a clueless banjo player who played either way too loud or way too soft, always with terrible tone. He didn't know many songs, but he would roll along anyway, often on the wrong chord, and was so thrilled to be there that nobody ever threw him out. He would often play on top of other people's breaks, blissfully unaware of what he was doing. And when it was time for him to take a break he would try and fail miserably every time. But he always kept coming back, God help him.

Eventually some of the better players gave him some gentle pointers, and over time he learned the error of his ways and was able to blend in without ruining the jam. That banjo player was me, 9 years ago. If it weren't for that jam and the people who came to it, I probably would have quit the banjo before I ever really got off the ground.

The man who ran the jam, Lester Goodwin, passed away last week at the age of 71. RIP Lester.

-matt

Nice pickNgrin, great story. Jams are so helpful for the beginning player. Without them you won't ever get a chance to test your own skills, and you'll miss out on the camaraderie that is music (especially bluegrass). This is a good topic and I am enjoying all the positive and constructive feedback.

I second that. pickNgrin, excellent story. Excellent topic.

Edited by - banjoy on 02/23/2012 14:36:25