I am still kicking myself and don't know how much more my butt can hurt. The Calico would have found a happy home in my lap. However I can stand my stupidity more so than I can understand Luke's non professionalism and his status as human being.

bhniko

I have found that its hard to play a banjo when your busy kicking yourself.    Stop kicking and keep picking.  

ive been following this story and feel for you.... its sad that you got stiffed on your banjo -- with the 1k you got back, you should get this wildwood -- http://www.ebay.com/itm/Wildwood-Minstrel-Open-Back-Banjo-/300665482170?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item46010f2bba#ht_500wt_1090  

I have a wildwood and it's a lifer. 

Sorry for your problems. From the website:

"For the past 15 years Luke has built a reputation as a restorer of fine and rare violins, a maker of violins and more recently, banjos"

 I guess very recently or he had an apprentice help. Where I take my instruments I always make a comment to not let the apprentice anywhere near them.

this indeed is a sad tale. One of which has happened to many folks over time, and myself a few times as well.. Its turned me off from buying banjos that arent already build. The excuses keep adding up, and in my experience once you offend the "artist" good luck getting anywhere.....

If and when you get your money back, Id contact brooks masten for your banjo. straight shooter

Custom builds are by definition "sight unseen". Some folks won't buy a banjo from any builder, e-bay or any source without holding it and playing it first. IMO these folks may want to shy-away from having a builder make them a banjo and stick with those that they can test-drive.

I had Luke build me a banjo. I was very pleased with Luke's work and my interactions with him. It took a great deal of communication, patience and perseverance to see the process through. It is a process [unlike going down to the banjer store] and like many things in life it can be unpredictable.

I wouldn't hesitate to deal with Luke again.

MrP

Hi riCK!!

I've had only one dealing with him a few years ago...I asked him to build a neck for a pot I had and when I asked him for some references, he disappeared like a f@rt in the wind.
I'm surprised that there's no attempt at damage control on his part..I guess he doesn't need the business.

I am in the savings mode again...squerriling away my loose change. It will give me some time to check out all the banjos recommended. Mrphysics and Disco Kid...as far as anyone dealing with Luke...good luck...say a lot of prayers, light a lot of candles...but my suggestion would be to avoid the disappointment. Whether Luke, his apprentice, his son or his uncle built the banjo he should be man enough to stand behind work coming out of his shop. I think you can read between the lines of Mrphysics that you need a lot of patience and perseverance...so why load yourself with problems when there are other honest and reputable banjo builders out there. And again it has to hurt those reputable small builders as I would hesitate to go sight unseen again.

Quote from bhniko:

"I think you can read between the lines of Mrphysics that you need a lot of patience and perseverance...so why load yourself with problems when there are other honest and reputable banjo builders out there."

-------------------------

bhniko,

Your interpretation of my comments are incorrect sir. I found the experience to be great fun and the resultant banjer is top of the line. Perhaps I was just more suited to the process.

It's not Luke's feelings that I was trying to protect by being "subtle". 

MrP

mrphysics55.
Sorry to have misinterpreted your post.
I am pleased that you have a banjer that you enjoy.

No harm to me bhniko.

I'm sorry for your suffering but I worry that more harm than good can come from threads like these. I'm sure that one incident doesn't define or constrain us. I bet if you, I and Luke sat down shared a meal and some tunes that it may be impossible to vilify one another.

I would like to apologize to you for being rude.

I wish you all the best.

Yours sincerely,

Eddie

Edited by - mrphysics55 on 02/22/2012 15:13:12

Hi eD :-)

mrphysics55.
No disrespect but forums like BanjoHangout are invaluable in allowing problems to be brought to light that affect the banjo public. What other recourse would a banjo player have if not for BanjoHangout and it's forum. I do not wish Luke any harm nor vilify him. All I asked was to refund $1650 of $1800 of my money for a banjo that was not properly made. Any other honorable banjo maker would stand behind their work. And in my case one incident does define Luke's attitude and professionalism. Possibly you would understand better if you wore my shoes. I am retired, have a limited income, saved quite a while and explained that to Luke and told him that at 80 it would be the last banjo I would be buying at the onset of our discussions. Thank the stars for BanjoHangout and all it's members.

quote:

---

Originally posted by bhniko

 And in my case one incident does define Luke's attitude and professionalism.

---

I don't think it's just "your case." As a general rule, singular incidents can tell one quite a bit about a person. Not that people can't learn from a mistake, but others usually require some evidence that that's the case to establish trust.

A thread like this is quite damaging. I can't pass judgment on the particular case, but without a response from Luke either defending his position or rectifying the situation, I can't say I would do business with him.

I will say that I can't see a way to spin the thing such that the current outcome could possibly be seen as fair. The way I see it, you currently own about 40% of the banjo. Of course, he should just refund the money you're out. However, if he fails to make the refund, you are entitled to about 40% of whatever he receives from the sale of said instrument. I believe that would start to approach something like a fair outcome.

I recently had a similar thing happen when I commissioned  a neck build from a builder I found here on the Hangout. We went around and around for the better part of 6 months and I finally got my money back in full. I won't go into the particulars because he did eventually do the right thing but only because I reminded him that it was less than a 3 hour drive from my house to his shop and I would gladly make the trip with about 8 or 10 of my Harley riding buddy's to discuss the refund face to face I even sent him a group shot of my Motorcycle Club. Three days later I got a check for the full amount and a letter of apology. I feel for you and your situation because like you I was willing do pay his price and all I wanted was a product that was as advertised and suitable for use. I don't condone violence nor did I threaten it. I think most builders you will find here are upstanding folks and stand behind their work then there are those that should not be allowed to be in business. What most people don't realize is this one guy will cause many potential buyers to question the integrity of every builder or at least wonder if they shouldn't just buy from the big established builders like Gibson, Stelling and the likes. In other words it only takes one bad apple.... I ended up buying a neck from another member which is what I should have done to begin with. I for one will never buy anything again unless it comes from an established builder like Gibson or Stelling or even Gold Star thanks to this small American Builder.

PD Kirby.
Can I borrow you guys for a trip to Canada? Kidding aside you put your finger on what I perceive is the problem...in that it hurts the small builders who are professional and trying hard to make a name for themselves. As you put it I will never buy anything else until I can play it with my two hands. And Evan...there is no way I am going to get any other refund other than sue. I would definitely press charges if it were in the states but Canada poses more of an issue. And then it probably would cost more that it would be worth. Thanks for your comments.
It sure is great to have the BanjoHangout forum.

quote:

---

Originally posted by bhniko

PD Kirby.
Can I borrow you guys for a trip to Canada? Kidding aside you put your finger on what I perceive is the problem...in that it hurts the small builders who are professional and trying hard to make a name for themselves. As you put it I will never buy anything else until I can play it with my two hands. And Evan...there is no way I am going to get any other refund other than sue. I would definitely press charges if it were in the states but Canada poses more of an issue. And then it probably would cost more that it would be worth. Thanks for your comments.
It sure is great to have the BanjoHangout forum.

---

You did the right thing by telling your story for all the Banjo world to hear regardless of what some might have said. I didn't do that only because I gave my word that given a full refund I would drop it. I did threaten early on to post about my experiences and name name's but that didn't seem to bother this guy and yes he is a member. But next time somebody asks why we don't support the small guy first instead of buying an Asian copy they should take a look at some of the complaints your's included (a simple search) and they will have their answer. I know there are some fine small builders but they should gang up on these other than honest ones and run them out of business. Maybe we could start a list of builders with which people should think twice about doing business with. Oh by the way my Motorcycle Club takes a trip almost every summer to the Canadian side of Niagara Falls to hit the Casinos and Gentlemans Clubs because you folks north of the border know how to throw a party.

PD
I am as south of the border as you can get...Miami...not quite Key West. The builder is in Canada and that's a good ride. If you are ever in the Miami area there is a place called Alabama Jacks just north of Key Largo in the Keys that many motorcycle folks hang out on Sunday.
Used to be lot of Country...but I haven't been there in a while and it might now be Salsa. Have a great trip and hoist one for me.

quote:

---

Originally posted by PD Kirby

I for one will never buy anything again unless it comes from an established builder like Gibson or Stelling or even Gold Star thanks to this small American Builder.

I don't see how one example of a bad banjo builder (if this is one) affects the reputation of only one size of other banjo builders.  Large builders aren't immune to this sort of thing, nor are they without detractors. 

Pay with credit cards would be my advice.  And make sure you check everything out before 30 days has gone by.

Corwyn,
It is seared indelibly in my mind. Maybe I should have it tattooed on my forehead.

I just want to add that these stories, although incredibly sad, are fairly rare.

I had Greg Galbreath of Buckeye Banjos (www.buckeyebanjos.com) build me

a banjo and am very happy with what I got.  There are many small builders

out there who are great to work with and really know what they are doing.

In most cases, I feel like you can't get the same banjo from a factory that

you can get from a dependable builder.

omiimii
I though I had a reputable builder...thought I did my homework...he has great testimonials
on his website which is well presented. Guess the Jedi force was not with me. It is unfortunate
as I will now will only buy if it is my hands to try before buying. I apologize to all the fine
banjo builders who are professional and stand behind their work and it is unfortunate that
one bad apple spoils throws a cloud of distrust upon all. Thanks for the comment.

Hey PD Kirby
I think a court might find that you did threaten violence? I only venture to say this because a large ocean exists between me and your motorcycle club. Hoping you don't have a chapter hereabouts...

Commissioning a Musical Instrument:

With the exception of a few starting-out hobby banjo makers building instruments for 600.00, I don’t know of any instrument makers that are in the business of buying back there own instruments. This is my livelihood and I deserve to be paid for the work that I do as does anyone else. I’m currently building a double bass and I assure you that there’s absolutely no way that I could ever afford to issue a full refund if the buyer decides he doesn’t like it.

To commission an instrument means that you’ve agreed to buy an instrument on spec. You’re taking a chance on an instrument to be custom built to suit your specific needs. The buyer is required to pay a deposit of usually 20% - 30% (non-refundable if the buyer backs out and work has commenced) and the remaining balance is always due at the time of completion.

If one is dissatisfied with the instrument upon receipt, the buyer is still obligated to pay the remaining balance. The maker is obliged to correct any known issues with the instrument free of charge and is obliged to work with the client until he/she is satisfied.

If the buyer is still not pleased with the instrument, (simply not a good marriage) the maker might offer to resell the instrument and issue a full refund to the original commissioner at the time of resale.

I think most department stores will only reissue an in-store-credit. Deering is a mass production company that can afford to refund in full. The little guy relies on the sale to feed his family and pay the rent.

You’re comparing apples to oranges here.

In this instance, Richard was not agreeable to my offer of reselling the instrument for his refund and for his own personal reasons could not live with the idea of having to ship the banjo back to me for further modification after his misplaced dot scenario for which I was out of pocket 232.00 in Customs duty taxes just to get it out of the Post Office.
Instead, he proposed a buy back from myself in the amount of 1,000.00. (7 months after the fact) He did also convey a great deal of stress from having to come up with 30,000.00 for a new roof.

Not my problem!

I issued him a refund of 1,000.00 and to me, at that time, it was a done deal!


When I got the banjo back 7 months later I scratched my head and had a good play on it. I also had a few other advanced banjo players play on it and the banjo was met with very positive reviews. There was nothing wrong with the sound, tuning and nor was the bridge wanting to wander. The bridge was exactly center to the body. As it was a great player I thought I would keep it as such for myself but instead I found that every time I looked at it, I thought of Richard.

It surprises me that no-one commented on my explanation of the ridge of the neck V favouring the treble side. No, I did not have to re-cut the heel, I removed 2 mm from the bass side of the fingerboard which also reduced the distance from the top fret to the tension hoop which corrected the previous visual asymmetry that led to Richard’s conclusion of a misaligned neck. Not to mention that there was a hump in the tension hoop at the cut-out which is also deceiving to the eye. (Off shore stuff from StewMac)
Oh, and one more thing, Congratulations Richard! After having been in the musical instrument business for the past 21 yrs. Building an outstanding reputation for myself, you are my first dissatisfied customer.

It is truly unfortunate that I did not become aware of this grand discussion about myself until today.
Unlike many of you, I don’t have the time to spare engaging in such banter in public forums, bashing
And sullying the reputations of others. It is not like me to hang my laundry for all to see and had I known this trolling (by one definition, being a prick on the internet because you can be) was going on, I would have joined in sooner to nip it in the bud. I did however, notice that Richard had sneaked his story in at the tail of a banjo review and I took it upon myself to report it as trolling to Eric Schlange but was very unimpressed that I received no response. (What kinda’ outfit you runnin’ here?)
A fair bit of the bashing going on in this very discussion is not legally acceptable and should have been intercepted by the webmaster prior to being posted. I’m shocked!
Situations like this can often result in termination of memberships but at this point I don’t feel that Eric even gives a s***.

In any case, to all of you that have indulged in this discussion by bashing my skills, accused me of lacking in professionalism based on one instance, a one sided story from a Richard Bugdal and a few photographs, you should be ashamed of yourselves. Having worked many years for an internationally renowned violin firm, I can say that judgements or opinions were never formulated on just photographs alone and we would be considered idiots if we had done so. Anyone dealing with high-end instruments would agree. And yes, I will confirm that the bridge was not in its proper placement to dramatize the photograph.

I’ve been told by my colleagues that it was a mistake on my behalf to refund you any money at all but we both agreed to the amount and I was trying to keep the peace.

Richard’s forgotten notes along the way:


March 20th 2011, you notified me that the 15th fret dot was on the 16th fret (a fret designation specified by you and carried out by me)

On March 24th, you wrote:

“Probably drove you nuts. But I have had some unpleasant things
happen by trusting people and when I chose you to build me a
banjo, without knowing you, my body went into anxiety.
During the months of wait my mind conjured up the most beautiful
banjo with the sweetest sound...and with each day the beauty
and the sound became greater and greater.

SO THANKS...THE BANJO IS MORE BEAUTIFUL AND
THE SOUND IS SO MUCH MORE THAN EXPECTED.

The simplicity of the banjo (being stripped of all frills) and
being black and silver is just beautiful. Even my wife
commented on the looks.

The sound is warm and full and surprisingly when playing up
at the neck the sound is crisp and clear.

And a pleasant surprise is the sustain of notes which is just perfect.
The notes resonate but do not ring and linger allowing following notes
to be heard in clarity without muddle.

As discussed previously my skills at playing the banjo are not
the greatest but I am truly pleased when playing it.

And thanks for working with me on the 17th dot inlay...I should
and will be more careful in the future. I wanted to play it for
a week or two before dispatching it and will let you know
when I ship.

I will call you next week as I had a question about your
comment of playing bluegrass on the banjo. But I do not
want to dilute this email expressing my joy and appreciation
to you.

THANK YOU.”

On March 25th in an email to *?&*%$/ you wrote:

Want to thank you for leading me to Luke Mercier.

As I told Luke I was a bit nervous in putting my trust and
faith in someone I did not know as I have had some
unfortunate experiences in the past.

The banjo arrived a week or so ago and I am extremely
pleased with both the look and the sound of the banjo.
I asked Luke to do away with all the fancy embellishments
and build it with the simple sleek look.

The banjo is black with silver head cover, tone ring and
hooks. Truly in love with it. Exactly as the pictures I had
previously sent.

Especially pleased with the mellow tone, the clarity of
the notes played up the neck and the sustain (or
resonance) which allows for following notes to be clear
and full.

Now the tough part...to play the it with competence.

Thanks again.


*At this point Richard had given me permission to include his words as a testimonial on my website.


On March 28th, you shipped the banjo back to me.
April 7th, banjo arrived and because of improper item description I was forced to pay 232.00 out of pocket for Duty charges in order to get the banjo out of the post office. I did not get reimbursed this charge and absorbed it along with the repair and the return shipping cost.

On May 31st, 2011 you received the banjo the second time.

On July 7th, you were still happy with the banjo and having fun taking pictures which you had excitedly emailed me.

At this point, the project was a success and all was well. You were a happy owner of a well built Mercier banjo.



Imagine my disbelief when a little over 6 months later on November 8th, 2011
this arrived in my inbox:

Luke,
I have been putting off writing you for a long long time.
Since I got the banjo back from you it has been sitting in a corner
not being used. Not really wanting to address a couple of issues I
finally decided that I really should not absorb the costs of a banjo
not properly constructed.
Every time I look at the banjo myheart sinks a bit more. This was
to be my last banjo and when I first got it I was thrilled but only
played four or five times before sending it back to correct the round
dot on one of the frets. But that was a minor issue and I did not
realize a major problem until I got it back the second time.

The most glaring problem is that the neck is not set true to the rim.
The area on the neck as it meets the rim on the first string side is
1/4". The area on the neck as it meets the rim on the fifth string side
is 3/8" causing the neck to be on an angle. This throws the frets off
kilter and affects the tone of notes when fretting. The bridge is in the
center of the head and to align the dots in the proper area the bridge
would have to be pushed to the left quite a distance and will not stay
put when starting to play. Also the 1st string keeps hitting the right
bracket hook causing note distortion when pulling off or clawhammering.

My Explanation

As you say, the bridge is exactly center to the rim as it should be, which is
A good indicator in favour of the neck being in alignment.

As I previously stated, the width of the fingerboard at the body is
53 mm which was to accommodate for the possibility of slightly wider string spacing
For classical playing whereas my normal standard would be 51 mm. There is 2mm
Extra width on the 5th string side as you can see where the fingerboard
Width extends beyond the edge of the tension hoop cut-out. The strings
However are at equal distance from the edges of the tension hoop cut-out on both sides.
Therefore, the strings are center to the body at the point that pass through
The tension hoop cut-out. Further, when measuring the distance from the
‘V’ to the top of the 17th fret on either side, there is an extra 2 mm on the
5th string side. While reducing the width of the neck on the 5th string side would
Balance the distance between the outer strings and fingerboard edge, it would also
correct the distance from the top fret to the tension hoop to match the
1st string side. Altering the neck alignment at this stage would no doubt force
The bridge off center to the body. As far as the first string knocking against the tension
Hoop goes, this does not happen when I play.
Perhaps a better tension hoop should have been used but we were also trying to keep costs down.

“Note the alignment of all the dots which are off kilter and not in
proper position between the strings as they progress toward the peg head.”

While it seems that many players tend to overly trust
The dot / string path relationship to determine correctness of neck alignment,
This cannot be trusted fully because it does not hold true unless the dots are
So perfectly placed deliberately along the paths of the strings. Methods used when installing
Fret dots can vary from one maker to the next.
While you have chosen to trust the dots for checking neck alignment, I’ll be more precise about my method chosen for dot placement on this banjo to help illustrate why you cannot rely on them for neck alignment.

Since the true center of a 5 string banjo neck at the nut end is not where you’d expect it to be,
( in the center of the nut width as on a guitar) it is really in the center of 3rd string groove. If that sounds odd, you have to imagine it as though there were no cut-out through the bottom 5 frets. Fill in the missing width at the nut And the 3rd string groove becomes the true center.
When setting in a dowel stick its alignment has to extend to the third string groove causing the dowel
Stick to appear to be on an angle in relation to the neck, especially so because the shaping at the back of the neck has to transition to the center of the neck width (not the true center) by the time it reaches the nut.

The line I used along which to install the 7 single fret dots was centered from the actual nut width (not the 3rd string groove - true center) to the center of the top of the fingerboard. The dots actually travel on a slight angle (because of the true center being the 3rd string groove) from the nut end to the top end in a straight line finding their centers along the 3rd string path closer to the body.

When placing a straight edge along the length of the banjo from the 3rd string groove to the center of the dowel stick end, it is in perfect alignment with the path of the 3rd string. All ends up straight.

Perhaps I should study more modern banjos to develop a more standardized method of dot placement but up until now, all of my banjo inspiration has been drawn from early instruments where there is ample freedom and so much variation from one instrument to the next.


In an email you sent on Dec 26th 2011 you stated:

I will agree to you sending me $1,000 and it will be a lesson for
that I will not forget or repeat. I am truly sorry that you do not
take responsibility for your work.
Please let me know how you would like to proceed.

Well, to keep the peace and to take responsibility for my work, I sent you a US Bank Draft in the amount requested (against the advice of my colleagues) even though it took you over six months to decide to pursue a refund at a time when you were stressed about having to come up with 30,000.00 for a new roof on your house. (Not my problem)! - For someone with a very limited budget that sounds like one helluva roof.

On January 17th, you wrote:

Hi Luke,

Your check arrived.

However when I pick up my Deering Goodtime to play I can't quite
resolve in my mind why I am out $800
to you and no banjo to show for it. I have tried to justify loosing my
banjo savings and can't quite seem to
come to grips with it as it has taken me some time to accumulate those
savings. After contacting *&?%$* for a reference I called you and
asked if you could build me a banjo in my affordable budget of $1600 to $1800
with a sound comparable with the one you built for him but without any
fancy inlay or engraving, etc.
You stated that you could for $1800. When you asked for more two weeks
more time after promised delivery time I even agreed to that.

There is no question that we have a difference of opinion. Mine being
it was not acceptable due to the workmanship and yours being that it is a banjo worth $1800.
Since I would like a reimbursement of $650, and be fair in asking the reimbursement, I suggest that we
post the photos on BanjoHangout.org and Classic Banjo - ning.com and ask the members to
comment on the issue. I would post the photos and ask for comments from the members
to resolve the issue between a luthier and myself without naming any names. I would state
my case and include your reply to me stating your comments.

Should the opinions be in your favor I will go my way and should the
opinions be in my favor you would refund me $650. Please let me know.

My response:

Dear Richard,

I feel that while members of the BHO and other such forums are often
experienced and knowledgeable about banjos, they should not be responsible
for resolving an issue that is, as
far as I can see a closed case.
I've already paid you a refund of $1,000.00 USD on a banjo
commission/transaction that was non-refundable to begin with.
I understand how you must be feeling, having lost out, however when
commissioning
a work from a maker, it is generally understood that you have a certain
timeframe (usually 30 days but in some cases as little as 48 hours) in which
to return for full refund.

Please accept my sincere apologies but while you may state your
case on a public forum I cannot allow the comments to dictate
any further action on my part and I would prefer that this was not put up
for public comment.
Sincerely,

Luke Mercier




Your last reply sent January 25th, 2012

Sorry to hear that you will not back up your work.
I have tried to resolve the situation by placing your workmanship and
banjo for resolve in a friendly mannyer. You leave me no further choice than to
post on Banjolhangout.org and Classic banjo the photos of your workmanship.
I will also contact Canadian authorities and also send the the contents of the
workmanship and your remarks. It is amazing that you would rather expose
your capabilities and cloud your reputation.
I surmise I will look as foolish as you in not pressing you in a adversarial fashion
for return of all my money but I assure you I will not be embaressed as much
as you.

I’ve tried not to leave anything out here as I will likely not be returning to the BHO as
It never really has been of any good use to me.

To those that stood up to my defense for having had positive business dealings with me in the past years I salute you.

To those that did not engage but watched and have had positive business dealings with me in the past, I salute you also.

I look forward to serving you in the future.

To all of the bashers that can‘t wait to jump on the bandwagon with malicious armchair comments and criticism for your own personal gain, I feel sorry for you guys.

To all of the young makers out there, protect yourselves!

I make banjos because I love them. If I did it for the money I'd be waisting my time.

Luke Mercier

Luke Mercier Handmade Violins & Banjos
www.lukemercier.com